DragonFly users List (threaded) for 2005-06
Re: Matt's Opinion
:Matt I want to know your opinion on the "similarities, differences, and
:synergy, between Linux kernel and the BSDs" series of interviews from
:I will take the liberty to ask you the same questions, if there's no
:problem with you, and put your answers in my website SoloBSD.org and in
:the DFly Wiki too if the community thinks is OK.
Ok, I'll have a go at it.
:Here we go: (There's no deadline to answer them Matt, take all the time
:you need. I don't want to interfer in your work time).
:1.- What are some of the similarities, differences, and synergy -- if any
:-- between the Linux kernel and the BSDs?
The best way to think about the various open source projects is to
consider ideas rather then actual code. The very nature of open source
is that individuals tend to want to write the code themselves. Only
wholely self-contained subsystems (which primarily means user
applications such as ssh, apache, etc), which tend to be the most
portable, are adopted wholesale. Very little actual code sharing
occurs within the kernel itself with device drivers being the primary
Most of the sharing, and synergy, occurs at the conceptual level.
Ideas are shared all the time. Implementations are compared and even
tested against each other. For example, when Jeffrey Hsu implemented
SACK in DragonFly we tested it against Linux and whatever other
implementations we could find out on the net. So while no code
was taken from those other implementations, their very existance
greatly reduced the amount of time and effort it took for us to do our
:2.- The BSDs are still considered by some to be more technically correct
:than the Linux kernel. Linus Torvalds has said in the past that it's not
:all about technology. Do you think the BSD project you work on is better
:technically for some or all uses than GNU/Linux (in general)?
I'm not sure its a valid comparison to consider technical merits as the
sole measure of a project's success. The developers working on the BSD
projects have been established longer and tend to be older (one or two
generations older, in fact). Older more experienced programmers tend
more towards technical correctness simply because they know that code
longevity is in part based on how well the original program was
constructed. Younger programmers tend to take more shortcuts and tend
to produce less robust code. It is simply a fact of life.
But this doesn't make the BSDs better, per say. Longevity does not
mean forever and perfect coding does not mean that the algorithm chosen
is the best for the job. One could say that the code being pushed
into the Linux kernel is not sufficiently thought out, not sufficiently
robust, and not well enough integrated to produce a smooth, long lasting,
easily maintainable result. At the same time one could also say that
regardless of code perfection, the algorithms in the kernel that the
BSDs are based on were never designed with modern computing in mind
and the BSDs are suffering (relative to Linux) because of that. The
various BSD projects have chosen radically different approaches to
'fixing' these algorithms (with DragonFly and FreeBSD doing the most
radical surgery on the core BSD algorithms).
The social dynamics are also quite different. Leadership plays a huge
role in any project, but it is particularly important in a large
open-source project with many contributors. Really good programmers are
self-confident and somewhat egotistical by nature, and become more so as
they age. The job of managing a large number of class-A personalities
is not for the weak of heart. Linux is blessed with particularly strong
leadership at the moment (that being Linus). OpenBSD, NetBSD, and
DragonFly certainly have strong leadership. FreeBSD has gone through
a serious changing of the guard in recent years and I would have to say
that leadership is somewhat lacking for them at the moment.
The jist of this is that the 'taste' of a project is often a reflection
of its leader. Because it is virtually impossible to rate personalities
on an absolute scale, it is also impossible to rate projects on an
In fact, the qualities of a project will change radically when the
leadership changes. Take XFree vs XOrg. Consider FreeBSD's changing
of the guard. Consider the fallout that has occured from changes of
leadership in other major open source projects. I would argue that the
'name' of the project has very little to do with anything.
:3.- If the BSDs were technically better than GNU/Linux five years ago, has
:the playing field leveled since then?
Everyone ages and the Linux developers have been aging along with the
rest of us, so they are certainly better programmers now then
they were before. At the same time all projects gain new, younger
developers. This tends to create generational parity over time. So
as best I can answer the question I would say that the playing field
has leveled with regards to technical ability, but I can't really
say that that has actually translated to technically equivalent
code in-kernel. In my opinion, Linux still suffers from its pot-luck
I still believe that from a technical standpoint, the BSDes are coded
better. On the flip side, we are still stuck with basically one
filesystem (UFS derived) whereas as Linux has several (XFS, JFS, Reiser,
EXT*, etc). Of course, reliability of those filesystems is another
matter. Its taken Linux years to stabilize their filesystem work and
I still hear complaints about them all the time from colleges who work
with Linux. Performance is not everything.
:4.- Is sharing between DragonFly/Free/Open/NetBSD and the Linux kernel a
:common occurrence? And if so, does it go both ways?
Actual code sharing between the BSD projects and Linux is minimal.
There is a moderate amount of code sharing between the BSD projects
themselves, especially userland applications and device drivers.
Algorithms, ideas, and bug fixes are shared more often then anything
else. For example, I had long discussions with a number of Linux
developers working on the Linux VM system, explaining the BSD
algorithms to them and why they were chosen, and many of those concepts
have found their way into the Linux kernel.
:5.- Are there parts of Linux that you would like to see adopted in the
Not particularly. Linux is a melting pot of ideas, and that is good
in the sense that a lot of different ideas get tested. We might adopt
concepts and then write the algorithm from scratch, but nobody here
is really interested in adopting the actual code, at least not within
Both Linux and the BSDes adopt ideas from external sources, quite
often the same source. The TCP SACK protocol is an example of this.
Same protocol, different implementations. External sources, such as
RFCs, POSIX, and other sources, are the primary glue that keep all
the open source projects interoperable and differentiate them from
:Thank you very much.
:Guillermo García Rojas Covarrubias (LinuXo/RaD|Tz)