Re: Stable tag will be slipped Sunday and release engineering will begin Monday

[Bill Hacker <wbh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Rahul Siddharthan wrote:

> I was using Debian unstable till recently and switched to Ubuntu,
> which is like an up-to-date Debian.

Well Ubuntu might be if it would even *install*.
'Hoary' wouldn't. Went with VectorLinux
instead. (Slackware basis, and not a bad package system, either).

>  I *never* had a breakage with
> Debian unstable.

Luck  - or a specialized set of apps that exclude, for example
any current Exim - lives with you my friend.

> And I had about 10 different repositories in my
> sources.list.  Only one time, when I had an unofficial KDE installed, 
> upgrading to the official one created issues; but manually removing
> the offending KDE packages fixed things immediately.
>
> And as I said, the upgrade from Debian to Ubuntu went without a hitch.
> It's as if a parallel project created their own FreeBSD-compatible
> ports tree, and you could just upgrade your machine, and all packages
> on it, to that tree with a single command.  And on linux that means
> the entire base system, libc and all.  I left only the kernel
> untouched.   I have to admire a packaging system that can do that.
So would I, if I could... ;-)

But the closest I have come to date involved an Amex card and a 17" 
PowerBook.

> If you have problems with Debian's slowness in releasing, try Ubuntu.

Well Debian will at least *install*, so no joy there.....

> Or Xandros or Lindows or the other systems that use Debian packaging.
> Don't confuse the packaging system with Debian's official releases.
> In fact, don't even confuse apt with dpkg.  Apt has been ported to RPM
> too (though I haven't used it).
>
>
> > The traditional *BSD methods, be they port, package, or direct build,
> > are far more forgiving and resilient - and generally easier to
> > troubleshoot, fix, or work around to keep current.
>
>
> Bill, I don't think you've actually used Debian.

For sure not for long!  I love ancient history, but not all the time ;-)

>  Try it and see.

Saw all I needed to see..... Slack and Vector I could live with,
but AFAICS, the only claim to fame Linux has is 'better' SMP
(which DragonFly should lay to rest 'Soon'),
. .and more choice of filesystems - not all of them worth carrying home.

One or the other of the *BSD's is leaner, cleaner, and all around
faster and more stable on every other issue - GUI included if that's what
is needed.  Granted - it is not always as easy to install a BSD, but at 
least
you *have* something when you finish.

Also much easier to run Linux binaries on BSD than the reverse,
not that I have find many that weren't faster yet just native-compiled
on *BSD.

Gabriel's point in re Java may be an exception - but I would personally
rather have an STD than Java.  Easier to cure, and more fun getting it
'installed'.  ;-).

> As for me, "resilient" is not the word I would think of when
> considering the FreeBSD ports tree.  I remember at least 2 serious
> snafus (involving libpng and gettext), and have forgotten dozens of
> minor hiccups, in my 4-5 years of using FreeBSD.

Well - to be fair - I've had that many within a few *hours*, let alone 
4-5 *years*.

So long as there to be progress in the F/OSS world, that will happen 
from time to time.  F/OSS is not, nor will ever be, as 'regimented' as 
OS/2, OS X, 'big iron', or even MS WinWoes - and every one of htose 
*still* have their share of disjoint.
Things get out of step. Part of any sufficiently complex and dynamic 
environment.  Wives, for example.

>  Usually nowadays,
> when such a major disruptive upgrade happens, detailed portupgrade
> instructions are posted on the lists, and things still seem to go
> wrong for users.
>
> Rahul

Now and then they did/do still with OS/2 //eCs, Apple OS X, and Windows 
as well. Or a Mercedes-Benz.
A Seiko watch or Bic lighter these are not.

If a few (many?) dozen 'hiccups' over 4-5 years are all you have had, 
you have been blessed.
The average GSM/GPRS mobile phone will have to be power-cycled that many 
times in the same period, if not replaced twice.

If Debian actually solves that problem for you, then by all means, stick 
with it.

Pioneers, OTOH, expect to get a few arrows in thei rass.  Builds 
character..or at least scar tissue...  ;-)

Best,

Bill